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Visitor: Liz Simmie is the co-founder of Honeytree Funding Administration, an asset administration agency based mostly in Toronto, Canada.
Recorded: 12/13/2023 | Run-Time: 52:11 
Abstract: In right now’s episode, Liz dives into the technique of BEEZ, which focuses on responsibly rising firms which can be stakeholder ruled, function pushed, and make a web constructive affect on the world. Then she shares some sizzling takes on the state of each ESG and energetic administration. As we wind down, Liz talks in regards to the technique of launching an ETF with our associates at Alpha Architect and shares recommendation for anybody fascinated about launching one themselves.
Feedback or recommendations? Concerned about sponsoring an episode? Electronic mail us [email protected]
Hyperlinks from the Episode:
- 1:15 – Welcome Liz to the present
- 1:46 – Launching BEEZ
- 7:11 – Discovering accountable development and being ‘quantamental’
- 10:19 – Lively administration and index hugging
- 15:14 – Foremost elements that filter out sectors and corporations
- 21:30 – Overview of stakeholder governance
- 25:16 – How energy balances inform Liz’s funding philosophy
- 34:56 – Place sizing
- 38:44 – What it’s like to begin an ETF
- 44:24 – Episode #318: Perth Tolle, Life + Liberty Indexes
- 46:23 – Beliefs Liz holds her that her friends would disagree with
- 49:11 – Liz’s most memorable funding
- Study extra about Liz: Honey Tree Make investments; X
Transcript:
Welcome Message:
Welcome to The Meb Faber Present, the place the main target is on serving to you develop and protect your wealth. Be part of us as we talk about the craft of investing and uncover new and worthwhile concepts, all that will help you develop wealthier and wiser. Higher investing begins right here.
Disclaimer:
Med Faber is the co-founder and Chief Funding Officer at Cambria Funding Administration. Resulting from trade rules, he won’t talk about any of Cambria’s funds on this podcast. All opinions expressed by podcast members are solely their very own opinions and don’t mirror the opinion of Cambria Funding Administration or its associates. For extra data, go to cambriainvestments.com.
Meb:
Hey, hey all people. A enjoyable present once more right now. Our visitor is Liz Simmie, co-founder of Honeytree Funding Administration, which lately launched an actively managed ESG-focused ETF ticker BEEZ. In right now’s episode, Liz dives into the technique of BEEZ, which focuses on responsibly rising firms which can be stakeholder-governed, purpose-driven and make a web constructive affect on the world. And she or he shares some sizzling takes on the state of each ESG and energetic administration. As we wind down, Liz talks in regards to the technique of launching an ETF with our associates at Alpha Architect, and shares recommendation for anybody fascinated about launching one themselves.
Please get pleasure from this episode with Liz Simmie.
Liz, welcome to the present.
Liz:
Thanks for having me.
Meb:
The place do we discover you right now?
Liz:
Toronto, the good white north up right here.
Meb:
I heard an A in your diction earlier. Are you initially a Canadian?
Liz:
Yep, born and raised in Toronto my entire life. I’ve by no means gone anyplace else. Really I went to Montreal for college after which got here again and can by no means go away this nice metropolis and nation.
Meb:
Superior. I adore it up there. We’re going to speak about quite a bit right now. One of many matters listeners, which you most likely actually wish to stick round for is this idea of beginning ETFs. I get loads of questions. Day-after-day individuals wish to begin an ETF, they received an concept for an ETF. We’re going to speak about somebody who’s achieved it very lately, placing out their first fund in November with our loopy pal, Wes Grey and crew. So we’ll positively get into just a little little bit of that later. However I wish to speak just a little bit about you, your concepts, your course of. Give us just a little background.
Liz:
I’ve an economics diploma, economics and historical past diploma, and I wished nothing to do with this nice trade of ours as a result of I wished to make the world a greater place and do cool stuff. So I ended up in market analysis, so shopper insights, so testing model technique for PNG and large financial institution, new account, all these cool analysis tasks, quantitative and qualitative.
After which my dad began an rising supervisor. So my dad’s a bootstrapped US fairness supervisor based mostly in Toronto, and so they had this third man who was American and he received divorced. So whenever you get divorced and also you’re right here on a spousal visa, you get despatched again to the US, which it’s what it’s. So my dad wanted a 3rd individual to come back in. I begrudgingly stated, “Certain, it feels like an attention-grabbing concept,” having actually no idea of the funding trade past just a little little bit of publicity right here and there.
And I used to be fortunate. I joined a bootstrapped dividend development fairness supervisor at about 10 million AUM and was there till about 1.5 billion AUM after which left to begin Honeytree. And to be tremendous clear, it’s ’trigger my dad was a founder. There’s a complete pile of privilege in there, but when I had gone the standard path to be a portfolio supervisor at an even bigger store or a pension or no matter, it’d be a really totally different expertise that wouldn’t essentially set you as much as going to bootstrap your individual rising supervisor.
The agency’s referred to as Bristol Gate for folk who wish to google issues. We launched ETFs in 2018, and I had met my co-founder on the identical time, and we thought all these of us try to launch ESG methods and so they’re all lacking what we expect the tip consumer for these ESG merchandise need. And this, to be tremendous clear, is lengthy solely fairness universe, not alter hedge funds or something like that.
And so in 2018, we set out, which is similar 12 months we launched the ETFs up right here. 2018, we got down to discovered Honeytree. We had been registered in 2019. It takes quite a bit longer up right here to get permitted by the regulators. We began our observe information in 2019 for our world fairness technique. We did that in order that we didn’t must launch a car off the bat as a result of autos value some huge cash and so they take loads of effort to distribute. They take loads of consciousness and all these items.
Anyhow, we had all the time meant to launch a retail car. We didn’t ever desire a non-public fund. Lengthy-only boring methods positively don’t make sense in non-public funds in Canada or the US and we thought we’d have a Canadian car first. So we went round. There’s not as many white label choices up right here, and those that they’ve are, we’ll name it not pretty much as good, however we thought we might launch a subadvised Canadian car up right here.
After which we met Wes. And Wes determined that we wanted to get ourselves right into a US ETF. After which we realized, wait a second, US, the US market’s larger, there’s simply as a lot if no more demand for ESG merchandise. One main distribution distinction between Canada and the US is in Canada, no person cares that we’re lady owned. We’re the fifth or sixth public markets asset supervisor owned by lady in Canada. That’s what number of there are up right here. So there’s no supervisor range initiatives up right here institutionally or from advisors, whereas all people is aware of within the US, a lot of states have numerous supervisor initiatives at their pensions and issues like that.
So we thought, if we’re going to do that car, let’s do it within the US, let’s do it as an ETF and let’s do it with Wes. And increase, November seventh, we launched our first ETF and the ticker is BEEZ, B-E-E-Z, ’trigger branding issues and it’s a US massive cap and it’s targeted on accountable development.
So it’s the identical funding thesis we’ve been engaged on our total agency historical past, which is responsibly rising firms, stakeholder-governed, purpose-driven firms who handle their stakeholders outperform in the long term.
What’s actually attention-grabbing is we didn’t like all of the prevailing ESG frameworks. We thought, and I may discuss for 10 years in regards to the issues with current ESG and funding frameworks, however we threw out loads of the scores and current fashions and current assumptions about ESG. And we took what my dad had constructed, a quantum psychological mannequin for Bristol Gate and we introduced in ESG knowledge on equal footing with the monetary knowledge all through your complete course of.
What we’re recognized on is ESG integration. So full ESG integration, which suggests we deal with ESG knowledge as elementary firm knowledge in safety choice, not right here’s our monetary mannequin over right here on one aspect and right here’s our ESG mannequin and evaluations over right here on different aspect. We deal with the ESG knowledge that we use as elementary firm knowledge when choosing these firms for the portfolio.
Meb:
So let’s dig in on the method as a result of quite a lot of the phrases you used may imply loads of various things. ESG means loads of various things to loads of totally different individuals. So let’s hear just a little bit about y’all’s course of. You may have a pleasant deck. If we will embody it within the present notes, listeners, we actually will on the method, which I feel could be very useful. However why don’t you stroll us by way of it. How do you guys discover accountable development? What does that imply? And after we hit a few of these phrases, let’s attempt to give y’all’s interpretation of what you suppose it means to you as effectively.
Liz:
So quantum psychological means we’re not purely elementary and we’re not purely quant. We use each processes. And for folk on the market who usually are not deeply steeped in fairness, elementary fairness land, elementary is taken into account deep dive qualitative analysis and quantitative analysis into an organization versus quant processes are typically extra quantitative, much less deep dive into an organization kind measures. And there’s many various managers who do each. We do each.
And what that appears like in our course of is we begin with the entire index, no matter index that may be. On this case for the ETF, it’s the US. And we run 25 qualification standards. And most of these are quantitative knowledge factors. We don’t do a fancy-schmancy predictive complicated quant like a few of other people may suppose quants are. However we now have 25 qualification standards that’s attempting to get us right down to a consideration set about 50 firms.
And what that qualification standards appears like is there’s some useful stuff. Can we purchase it in custody in North America 5 billion minimal market cap? Some monetary. If we now have a dividend, it needs to be rising funding above funding grade credit standing. Then there’s loads of conventional ESG exclusions. So conventional ESG exclusions are sort like the unique non secular investor exclusion as a result of ESG has its roots in non secular investing. So no weapons, no weapons, no playing. We don’t exclude pot, however no pot firms make our display. We exclude fossil gas manufacturing.
Meb:
That’s sacrilege up there in Toronto. Man, no marvel you’re launching this within the US. There’s all of the traditional Canadians, man, the mining and power, they’re most likely identical to, “Liz, what are you speaking about?”
Liz:
Properly, it makes it very attention-grabbing up right here as a result of we now have all the foremost pensions are deeply dedicated to ESG and deeply dedicated to power funding. And I wish to level out to those that the power firms are actually good at DEI and reporting far more so than tech firms and asset managers, however that’s a unique story. However we exclude fossil gas.
There’s a few causes we exclude fossil gas. We by no means held an power firm at Bristol Gate as a result of power firms are just a little too cyclical to have excessive constant dividend development. So from becoming in into qualifying and stepping into the portfolio, they’re more likely to fail anyway. So it’s form of only a bit simpler to display them out ’trigger you realize they’re not going to make it. We additionally don’t have any renewable power firms in our portfolio.
Meb:
Properly additionally, I imply whenever you transfer from a universe of hundreds right down to 50, you’re invariably going to kick out all kinds of issues and areas and sectors and industries, whether or not it’s from the broad standards, whether or not it’s from the secondary type of standards as effectively. In order that’s the entire level of energetic administration. You desire a concentrated portfolio as a result of when you’re charging greater than zero, you need it to take a look at bizarre and totally different.
Liz:
Yeah. And it’s humorous ’trigger I’ve by no means understood why of us don’t need it to look bizarre and totally different. It’s considered one of my massive points with energetic administration index hugging.
Meb:
It’s quite simple. They need it to look bizarre and totally different when it’s going up. They need it to look bizarre and totally different if it’s taking place and also you’re not taking place. However primarily it creates a bizarre precept agent downside as a result of loads of the big asset managers, as soon as they get to scale, upon getting 10, 50, 100 billion, 500 billion, you don’t wish to look that totally different as a result of there’s solely draw back threat. The cash is already captive. And we all know that cash as soon as it’s sitting someplace, doesn’t wish to go anyplace until it will get abused or does very poorly. For those who have a look at loads of the old fashioned hedge funds too, their early years the place they did 150% or these large returns and now all of them do 7% with 10% volatility.
Liz:
They usually’re all chasing FANG shares and it’s like, what are you doing? However the index hugging factor, individuals like to choose on ESG for index hugging. Lively is index hugging all the way in which. I imply, I’m an enormous believer that loads of energetic underperformance comes from not taking dangers and never having excessive energetic share and index hugging and making a bunch of silly choices as a part of that.
However you’re proper, our qualification course of kicks out entire sectors. After we run our world, we exclude dictatorships in our world fairness technique. So we’re okay not having exposures to a bunch of issues, whether or not they be sectors or international locations or kind of firms.
In our non-traditional ESG qualification standards, we have a look at board range past gender. So we embody racial range of board members, 33% or extra. So we gained’t have a look at an organization who has not found out methods to put a pair token range hires on their board but, largely as a result of when you haven’t found out how to try this from a governance perspective, you’re not very competent.
Meb:
I imply, does that display alone kick out half of the universe it seems like?
Liz:
No, persons are a lot … Within the US, particularly the US boards are fairly numerous. Canada’s fairly dangerous, however clearly we’ve received none of these within the ETF. However even after we began, if we had a 40% bar, it might kick out a lot of of us. It’s humorous ’trigger actually it finally ends up kicking out cool tech renewable power boards that you just … not typical stuff that we maintain in our portfolio like boring industrials and boring retailers and semiconductors as a result of they’ve all been engaged on these items for some time. So it doesn’t kick any of these out.
Funding grade credit standing may kick out extra firms. For those who have a look at the final cohort of our qualification course of, there’s most likely extra boards that fail or extra firms that fail on funding grade credit standing or fraud points and issues like that, lawsuits, than on the board range. Why? ‘Trigger all people’s slowly figuring it out. And to be tremendous clear, we’ve elevated that 33% from 30, so ultimately it’ll be 35 and we now have to cope with the universe as it’s. ‘Trigger our purpose is to get from the universe right down to a manageable consideration set that we will cowl from a elementary deep dive perspective in probably the most environment friendly means attainable.
And we run that consideration set as soon as yearly. So we’ve achieved it 5 instances now. So did 2018 until now and it evolves, however it doesn’t change that a lot. It completely spits out chubby IT, chubby industrials supplies. We by no means have any banks. Now we have some monetary stuff. We usually don’t have actual property, and we’re okay with that.
And one factor you’ll discover, when you have a look at our portfolio, there’s loads of manufacturing concerned firms. And that’s the place the semis form of pop in. It’s ’trigger these firms who’ve needed to handle labor, handle manufacturing amenities, handle worker security, you may think about there could also be just a little few steps forward of a West Coast tech firm when it comes to fascinated about their workers and reporting ESG stuff and employee security and issues. So it’s attention-grabbing the way it nets out.
Meb:
Yeah, I’m saying this from a podcast whose listeners are most likely 90% male. I imply, I bear in mind giving a speech in New York to Quantopian crew and so they did a stay viewers and it was like 95% male. However the enterprise capital has to me, probably the most outsized. I imply, I feel girls get 2% of enterprise capital {dollars}. It’s some extremely low quantity that’s nowhere close to 50. However anyway. Okay, so we’re getting just a little off-topic.
All proper, so we’re beginning with quite a lot of these elements. You bought loads of them. What do you suppose are the principle drivers of those that type of filter out probably the most issues? Are there any of the 25 or so which can be notably extra outstanding?
Liz:
Checked out it year-over-year and so they are typically, I imply clearly participation exclusions. You realize what I’d say? There’s a complete bunch and so they’re all fairly equal. And that want for dividend development, the funding grade credit standing, the variety, the trade participation, the standard ESG exclusions, even glass door ranking, it’s form of simply an equal. You’d suppose it was larger in a few of the areas. Apart from dropping entire industries, it’s a really attention-grabbing form of balanced course of.
After we did it at Bristol Gate, it was the S&P 500, removed all of the non-dividend payers, removed all people beneath funding grade credit standing, and based mostly on subsequent 12 months’s predicted dividend, we selected the highest 50 and did the elemental deep dive on these. And what we’re getting with the identical however a unique course of ’trigger bear in mind, what we’re slicing out is just not, we will’t simply have the very best dividend growers as a result of if we simply appeared on the highest dividend growers to get the ESG growers too, or the accountable growers too, we’d must form of go just a little bit additional than the highest 50 excessive dividend growers.
And that’s why we altered or optimized this course of that my dad constructed as a result of we wished the identical issue publicity. So these excessive constant dividend growers who’re well-managed and well-governed and targeted on the long-term, we wished them, however with barely larger degree of ESG. And to be tremendous clear, when you have a look at the Bristol Gate ETF, it has the next ESG ranking than most ESG managers and techniques on the market as a result of boring, excessive, constant sustainable dividend growers usually have excessive ESG scores ’trigger they typically don’t do a complete bunch of silly stuff that will get you pushed down within the rating with controversies or behind on the instances when it comes to board range, all these items that make up ESG scores.
And also you’ll discover I didn’t point out we use ESG scores as a result of we don’t use ESG scores at any half in our course of. And ESG scores, simply ’trigger I do know individuals hate ESG and scores, ESG scores are the identical as purchase/promote scores, proper? So it’s simply exterior sourced analysis {that a} portfolio supervisor should buy or not.
And so we run that qualification as soon as yearly. That will get us to about 50-ish firms. After which we do our elementary deep dive. And what we do is we take all of the financials we did at Bristol Gate, which skews taking a look at debt capability, how conservatively they’re managing their debt, earnings development, dividend development, aggressive market share, and we usher in ESG knowledge and put it equally beside that monetary elementary knowledge. And we purposely manage it underneath pillars in order that they’re equally weighted. So it’s not like, “Hey, the monetary half will get 66% weighting and the ESG half will get … ” We don’t divide it like that and nor can we simply to be tremendous complicated, can we consider measures as E, S and G. Each ESG enter that we use, we take into account elementary to the corporate. And I’ll offer you some examples.
So turnover. Turnover prices you cash. It’s an ESG measure, however the larger turnover you’ve, the extra it prices to rent new individuals. Water use, if it can save you the associated fee that you just spend on water, it’s a monetary factor. It’s positively an ESG factor, however it’s tied to the operations and the prices of an organization. It’s not a separate consideration. Waste is a good instance. It prices a lot of cash to get rid of waste.
And you then get into the stuff that’s just a little extra complicated to know the way it’s tied to the underside line, like gender and management year-over-year, racial range and management year-over-year. So at first look, oh, that’s only a really feel good measure. Properly, firms that we’re on the lookout for and that we personal perceive that the extra girls you’ve in management roles, the larger your pool of candidates you must recruit from. So it truly will increase the various constructive advantages to the corporate of doing this primary stuff that some would say is silly DEI stuff. However the firms that we’re holding are doing it for operational and enterprise causes, not as a result of it makes them look good on a questionnaire.
We have a look at science-based targets, that are net-zero associated. We have a look at parental go away. We have a look at what knowledge we will discover that’s comparatively systematizable throughout the consideration set of firms.
So if you consider it, we’re taking a look at most likely, of the 50 firms we’re doing this deep dive on, we’re taking a look at a few of the high ESG reporters and scoring issues. So we truly can run comparatively customized knowledge units throughout this 50-ish group of firms like racial range and management year-over-year, three-year change in that, three-year change in water depth, three-year change in water use. As a result of you may’t get it for the entire S&P 500 for instance as a result of a complete bunch of these firms aren’t reporting that degree of knowledge but. However as a result of we’re taking a look at this type of extra superior ESG-esque pool of firms, we’re getting all these knowledge factors that we might not have the ability to purchase from an index supplier who’s promoting ESG knowledge throughout their index.
In the end, we’re constructing a excessive energetic share, 25 positions, tremendous concentrated ETF of probably the most boring, sustainably rising, responsibly rising firms. And in a nutshell, these firms that we’re holding perceive that the constructive impacts that they make on all of their stakeholders, so their workers, their prospects, the area people, their shareholders, they perceive that the constructive impacts they make on these teams drives their backside line. So it’s not separate from their backside line. Doing good by their workers or their prospects is core to their mission and core to their function.
And these firms are based on that and it doesn’t matter what their political views are. Properly-managed, long-term targeted firms which can be stakeholder-governed and purpose-driven will outperform in the long term. And that’s our funding thesis and I ought to most likely outline a few of these phrases.
Meb:
Certain, let’s hear it.
Liz:
So stakeholder governance. So anyone steeped in investing has been usually skilled that shareholder primacy and shareholder governance is the position of an organization. So an organization’s job is to control on behalf of their shareholders and make their shareholders cash. The issue with that’s workers and prospects and a complete bunch of different elements affect an organization’s capacity to generate income.
So stakeholder governance, which isn’t one thing I invented, I’d argue authentic governance was stakeholder governance, however that’s a extra complicated subject. Stakeholder governance is only a firm that claims, “You realize what? Our workers and our prospects and all these items should be thought-about in our governance and our administration processes. Why? As a result of they affect and so they’re impacted by our choices. And we’ll do higher if we’re partaking all of our stakeholders and serving to and supporting and never screwing over basically all of our stakeholders.”
So there’s tons of firms on the market that consider in a stakeholder governance framework. So as a substitute of being our solely purpose is to return returns to shareholders. That turns into simply one of many roles of the board. And so we’re on the lookout for these firms the place there’s proof of their metrics, no matter these metrics may be, that they’re contemplating their stakeholders. ‘Trigger you may’t simply say you or your stakeholders are ruled and also you care about all these items identical to you may’t say you care about range. Saying you care about range or the surroundings is nice, however what you truly do in your corporation and the modifications that you just make and the outputs that you could see within the enterprise let you know whether or not one thing’s caring about any of these things.
So stakeholder governance is, I feel it’s one thing companies do extra naturally. I feel it’s within the funding trade I feel loads of our conventional finance concept assumes that stakeholders don’t matter. And so what you see in ESG is you see conventional monetary fashions over right here and also you see individuals attempting to suit all this local weather and variety into these fashions and so they don’t match as a result of the standard fashions assume shareholder primacy and shareholder governance. The one means ESG works in an organization is when its core to their operations and core to their function, not as a separate exercise on the aspect.
Our firms usually are not doing ESG stuff to really feel good or to look good. They’re doing it as a result of it’s a part of their function and their core, and it’s how they had been all the time based and the way they’ve all the time operated. And purpose-driven is actually complicated as a result of it’s one thing I discovered quite a bit about in governance coaching and in advertising, which is it’s actually troublesome to speak constantly to individuals.
And so these firms that we’re on the lookout for know that it’s actually laborious and know that sharing, having a shared function, getting a complete hundreds of workers to work collectively in direction of the identical purpose constantly and speaking that purpose is a troublesome exercise that they as a board and a administration group must work on. And that shared function is just not solely having a transparent function for the group, however serving to all of your workers, all your stakeholders, all your prospects perceive why you’re there and what you’re doing makes for a extra environment friendly ship if one may wish to say. When you’ve disparate targets and disparate concepts in a corporation about the place one ought to go, it’s much less environment friendly, and people get confused and don’t perceive as clearly what they’re speculated to be doing.
That is all management and governance science that’s simply within the early levels of academia when it comes to quantifying and analyzing all these items. However I feel all people can agree that if all people’s working round with their head lower off and no person is aware of what they’re doing at an organization, it’s lowering productiveness. And the extra all people will be on the identical web page when it comes to long-term targets, the extra effectivity that you could obtain.
Meb:
As you consider governance, there’s areas that you could be or is probably not concerned, however you may converse to it. I’m pondering of issues like within the US, notably with a few of the tech firms this previous cycle who’ve been very type of me-focused, that means like stock-based compensation that’s simply outrageous, a ton of dilution to shareholders, perhaps twin shared courses, all these kind voting issues which have gone on.
Do these play any position in any respect in your numerous screens and the way do you consider this push-pull story as previous as time with the stability of energy between boards and C-suite and compensation? How does that play into what y’all do?
Liz:
There’s like 100 matters there and so they’re all tremendous fascinating. I’m going to begin with a narrative. So Google again, should’ve been 2018, 2019 after we began, had two senior dudes sexually harassing a complete bunch of their workers and the board discovered this out. After which the board spent 12 or 14 months debating what they need to do with them. And the one lady on Google’s board stated, “Most likely we should always inform individuals and hearth them, most likely we should always do this.” They usually all simply sat there and twiddled their thumbs.
And that is all extremely certified group of people who find themselves CEOs and on a complete bunch of boards and so they’re professionals at this, but one of many largest firms on the planet sat there and twiddled their thumbs. After which ultimately they gave the blokes 50 million every and paid them off and brought on an enormous controversy with all their workers, all stuff that they might have been averted. It’s not their fault they received a bunch of sexually harassing dudes. The board’s job is to rent and hearth the CEO. And when the CEO’s not hiring and firing the dude sexually harassing of us, that’s a governance problem.
The primary time we constructed the portfolio, our world fairness technique, two of the boards had lately fired their CEOs for sleeping with their secretaries and numerous different issues. And that reveals useful governance.
The reply to your query is what’s useful governance? Is it a complete bunch of impartial board members? Properly, that’s what the ESG scores would let you know is nice governance. The issue is 10 impartial extremely certified of us don’t create good governance. Good governance is created by a governance tradition, by a shared function, by individuals truly working collectively on governance points.
So you may have good governance with bizarre compensation and all this type of stuff on the identical time, completely. However I’d argue loads of that massive tech is poorly ruled. We don’t have any financial institution shares in our portfolio for a purpose. And it’s not ’trigger they get excluded for producing fossil gas. However there’s a sturdy perception that non-independent administrators usually are not ESG. We don’t essentially share that perception. Whereas we’d choose … Clearly we search for audit committee independence for instance. That’s considered one of our necessities. We gained’t spend money on an organization. However that ship’s sailed. Everyone is aware of methods to make their audit committee impartial at this level and there’s no magic bullet on compensation.
And simply going again to CEO compensation, individuals hear quite a bit about CEO compensation, and there actually are loads of extremely paid CEOs. The issue is we don’t have any good measures proper now to actually assess CEO pay. And what I imply is what we’re usually utilizing proper now could be common employee pay to CEO pay. So it actually will depend on what trade and which set of knowledge that you just’re utilizing. And what issues extra is, to me, who cares in regards to the CEO pay. What issues extra is the baseline worker pay. What issues extra is pay fairness. So when you’ve received a person and a lady in senior management roles and the girl simply because she’s had decrease incomes all through her profession is getting paid much less, and that is stuff that firms can repair.
What issues is Walmart’s base pay versus one other retailers base pay, not essentially the ratio of what their executives make versus what that pay is. As a result of an organization paying a low quantity to executives doesn’t naturally imply it’s doing higher for the world. And executives value a lot of cash. So it’s a extremely attention-grabbing, messy subject, however the way forward for ESG is us with the ability to get this knowledge on the proper granularity.
We have already got exec comp. So exec comp clearly was already all the time there. It’s just a bit extra standardized in ESG reporting now. What we’re quickly going to have is management comp divided by group, proper? So we’re going to have lady in management’s comp, males in management’s comp even damaged down by racial range as a result of the way forward for ESG reporting is the Division of Labor range knowledge being put in monetary statements as required disclosure, and that features gender and race by degree, and that’s going to finish up together with turnover. It’s going to finish up together with pay and pay fairness, together with bonuses. It’s very attention-grabbing as a result of wage versus bonuses will get very messy when it comes to pay fairness. It’s going to be a shock to all people and all people’s going to hate it apart from the businesses which have been reporting this already.
Meb:
How do you guys cope with shifting sands over time? Not on issues which can be as apparent perhaps as range on boards, however issues like, hey, we’re going to exclude, you talked about hashish, alcohol, like opioids. I don’t know, a decade in the past individuals had been like, “These are the very best factor ever.” And now they’re like, “Oh my god, these are accountable for lots of misuse and issues like …” I imply we wrote an investing paper some time again on the investing pyramid, however the instance we gave was the meals pyramid from my youth, which is such as you actually ought to simply be consuming pasta and frosted flakes and muffins. Your base of meals ought to be carbs and the very last thing you need is fat or protein, no matter it was, and right now it’s inverted.
In order data change and shifts, how do you guys cope with that? I do know you stated it’s an annual course of, however do you type of replace these standards and concepts as they turn out to be extra accepted? How do you consider a few of these matters?
Liz:
I wish to level out virtually every thing we do kills individuals and people within the ESG aspect of the stuff give particular sectors a cross, like prescribed drugs for instance. Now we have no pharma firms in our portfolio. Now we have loads of well being tech although, like medical gear and issues like that. One of many causes we now have no pharma firms is ’trigger all of them have value fixing scandals. And so no matter their capacity to kill of us with their product or no matter, which is clearly don’t even get me began on the opioids and the Sacklers as a result of that might be a complete different podcast, the value fixing, which is they simply, I don’t know, all of them simply determined to do that previously 5 years, all of the executives simply working for costs or no matter after which the massive congress factor.
However right here’s what occurs in ESG and affect, and I say ESG and affect as a result of affect scores occur in public markets too. Generally individuals once they discuss affect investing, it’s simply non-public markets, however for probably the most half we now have affect scores on these firms. The issue with affect scores is they typically are based mostly on the SDGs, so the sustainable growth targets that are developed for international locations by the UN.
So an organization to be impactful in line with this framework, and I’ve received a complete bunch of air quotes right here for people who find themselves not watching my try to framing the sarcasm, to be impactful an organization wants to deal with an SDG. And so what occurs is all of the pharmaceutical firms get 100% affect ranking as a result of they make a drug that’s serving to individuals. They don’t get any unfavourable ranking for value fixing.
And so we might not be solely involved in regards to the opioid disaster. We’d be involved with the entire Sackler governance shit present catastrophe that was them creating the opioid disaster. For anyone who has not learn the lengthy, I feel it’s the Atlantic piece on your complete historical past of the advertising behind that, ’trigger once more, the meals pyramid that you just talked about, are you aware who paid for that? It was not the FDA. It was the cereal firms simply to be tremendous clear. There’s a complete bunch of analysis that company pursuits … That is considered one of my passionate areas. Tariq Fancy was the previous CIO of BlackRock, ESG at BlackRock, and he stop and he went on an enormous, massive talking tour of the world to say, “Corporations don’t make an affect. Solely governments and nonprofits could make an affect.”
However the Sackler household in an organization by way of a complete bunch of selling choices and a necessity to earn more money began and created an enormous unfavourable affect far past their product, proper? With all of the lies and the paying off docs and continued points, they created a unfavourable affect that no authorities or nonprofit may cease.
And so the reply is firms make big, big impacts, constructive and unfavourable. What we’re attempting to intention for on this portfolio is firms making a web constructive affect. So firms who’re lowering their unfavourable externalities as a result of they value cash, they harm individuals, they appear dangerous from a PR perspective, a complete bunch of the reason why you would cut back your unfavourable affect on the world whereas growing your constructive affect. So whether or not that’s higher first rate pay, safer work circumstances, higher high quality merchandise, extra progressive that clear up issues, discount in packaging so it prices much less, all these unfavourable and constructive impacts.
Meb:
So so far as portfolio development, you get down to those small group of names, 25 whatnot. Do you’ve some type of sector composition display so it’s not all 25 in MedTech for instance, or how do you guys do any type of place sizing on this closing portfolio?
Liz:
Yeah, so they’re equal weighted, so we take away the place measurement decision-making. My dad all the time stated it was so that you didn’t have a bunch of PMs combating over place measurement. We run a correlation evaluation, however it’s sector agnostic. We used to personal McDonald’s and KFC in my dad’s technique. And folks would say, “Aren’t they the identical firm?” And whenever you have a look at the geographic income of them, they had been fully reverse. And identical factor, there’s a lot of firms that look very comparable and appear very comparable on this massive cap area that aren’t essentially.
So whenever you have a look at our portfolio, we received a complete bunch of comparable stuff in there. And that’s the character of 1, we’re being actually selective. Two, we’re kicking out a complete bunch of stuff, however we positively don’t care about what the weights of the index are at any level in our determination making.
And we all know we’re going to be chubby tech and industrials and often supplies and each shopper issues relying on. However we’re agnostic to that. And these are equal weight bets, so we’re placing the identical weight on a mega cap as we might be on a small cap within the portfolio.
After which that’s a part of the energetic share. We’re okay not holding the highest 30 one thing % of the index. Now we have not one of the pretend shares. You’ll be able to’t have excessive energetic share when you’re holding a bunch of these firms. And all people else, I imply all people’s going to have these of their portfolio anyhow. However it’s actually, we’re on the lookout for the 25 most responsibly rising firms out of that 50-ish set of firms that we now have. It turns into our bench too. So the subsequent set of ranked firms in there are who will use when we have to hearth an organization, whether or not it’s for quarterly earnings or doing one thing silly on the ESG aspect or the non-ESG aspect.
However once more, loads of our stuff is annual knowledge. Whereas annual reporting and experiences come out midyear and issues like that, loads of our board range modifications once they change any person on a board, and we now have fired an organization for going beneath our threshold, however you may think about the businesses that we’re holding are very cognizant of not, when you’ve received 76% board range, in fact you may put a complete bunch of white dudes in your board, however when you received 31 and each investor that reveals up is partaking with you in your board range or one thing, you’re going to be cognizant of it.
And that’s what’s so humorous about ESG. The entire world tries responsible BlackRock and the funding trade on ESG. They’re the laggards on this. The pensions for probably the most half do loads of the engagement round and plenty of managers to be tremendous clear, ESG managers do loads of pushing on range and environmental stuff and governance and all these sorts of issues, however it’s the businesses themselves who notice that it’s a advertising profit, it’s a recruiting profit. It’s their massive 4 accountants saying that they will audit this knowledge and serving to them manage it. It’s the firms driving ESG. It’s not BlackRock driving ESG. It’s not … positively not Vanguard driving ESG stuff. Actually Vanguard is simply being referred to as into congress for pushing local weather change narrative, which is the funniest factor in your complete world for a passive store.
The oil sands firms up right here in Canada are working, doing much more work than most asset managers on range and lowering their emissions. Why? As a result of they’ve a complete bunch of traders who care and so they might be foundations, pensions, people who care about progress on these items and workers who care about progress on these items.
Meb:
Give us a behind-the-scenes have a look at what it’s like to begin an ETF. We get this query quite a bit. Lots of people see the pot of gold on the finish of the rainbow. There’s clearly loads of work that goes into it and also you guys are comparatively new launch, so congratulations. However inform us just a little bit in regards to the expertise, the way it’s been, have you ever made it right down to Puerto Rico but? What’s the general agony and ecstasy of being not solely a founder however a cash supervisor and now a ETF issuer as effectively?
Liz:
And a wholesaler and a marketer and all that form of stuff. I feel it’s fascinating that folks suppose ETFs are like concepts. I feel there’s a lot room for innovation on this trade. I feel it’s going to look completely-ish totally different in 20 years, however I feel there’s some stuff that isn’t going to alter.
I feel there’s all the time going to be public markets traders and personal markets traders and people who do each. I feel persons are all the time going to suppose geographically when it comes to allocation in sure issues. I feel there’s actually a spot for thematics. Once you launch a product, it doesn’t matter what it’s, this SMA mannequin, ETF fund index ’trigger that’s a complete attention-grabbing aspect of the enterprise, you must know who’s going to purchase it irrespective of how cool the concept is, and you must know the way it’s going to get distributed.
The nice factor with an ETF car is individuals should buy it, common individuals should buy it, and advisors should buy it in a bunch of locations, however there’s a complete bunch of restrictions and issues. They make issues extra sophisticated than simply launching an ETF. Just like the crypto ones, for instance, you most likely are associates with all Eric Balchunas and all of the crypto-obsessed ETF of us, and so they’re going to regardless of the spot Bitcoin ETF goes to launch. Properly, many of the warehouse cabinets are locked within the US.
Curiously up in Canada, not one of the warehouses locked their cabinets to Canadian or US listed ETFs. So any advisor in Canada should buy any ETFs besides the crypto ones. The massive banks up right here has put a particular ruling on crypto ETFs, and so they mainly stated to advisors, you can not purchase them. You’ll be able to solely purchase them in case your consumer indicators an enormous waiver and it will get a excessive threat ranking of their portfolio.
So although these are presumably the good, most talked about ETFs in your complete, total world, a complete bunch of Merrill Lynch and UBS and Citi of us usually are not going to have the ability to purchase them of their accounts anytime quickly as a result of they’re going to must get permitted, they’ll most likely create inside ones in order that they will, ’trigger there’s a pay to play facet there too, that people want to know. You may get your ETF on Schwab or no matter for free-ish. Getting your ETF on US platforms requires time and cash and a bunch of random stuff.
So this crypto one’s actually attention-grabbing ’trigger these ought to be, there’s going to be like, I don’t know, what number of are there? 18 now, all the massive asset managers, and so they’re going to observe and a few of them are going to get on some platforms, however a complete bunch of them are going to get locked off a bunch of platforms. So although it looks like an ETF is a magic bullet when it comes to wrapper for these merchandise, there’s a complete bunch of different issues.
In order that’s simply my rant to inform all people that your product concept is nice. Who’s going to purchase your product and the way they entry it’s most likely greater than 50% of the consideration that you must make earlier than spending a complete bunch of cash to launch an ETF.
For retail platforms, after I say retail platforms, I imply advisors utilizing platforms to handle their fashions, an ETF is changing into an more and more higher choice than a mutual fund as a result of one, you’re often going to cost it decrease. Two, they’re altering all of the charges and value buildings of how ETFs and funds and commerce prices and issues like that. And so that you see an enormous transfer in direction of arguably easier ETF fashions, and that’s why we didn’t go along with Wes ’trigger we love Wes. We went with Wes as a result of we positively weren’t going to do a mutual fund, and he has an ideal white label ETF platform and has demonstrated. I imply, I met Perth first and that’s how we met Wes. Perth is my hero.
Meb:
I do know. Properly, I seen your dictator’s remark earlier, and so I stated that feels like any person we all know.
Liz:
And I simply suppose it’s so fascinating. Perth’s most likely considered one of my favourite examples clearly, of constructing a profitable product. She knew there was a scarcity of rising market systematic merchandise that she knew there was none that excluded dictatorships and that there can be a complete host of advisors throughout the US who can be completely positive with their rising market slice of the pie to not embody Chinese language holdings or Russian holdings or Qatari holdings or no matter as a result of there’s sufficient rising markets firms on the market to get the publicity. And yeah, you’re not going to appear to be the index. However who cares? Numerous of us are on the lookout for systematic or energetic choices, not the entire index. We’re by no means going to persuade a bunch of passive of us to make use of this as a core choice, even when we’re the very best on the planet. You’ll be able to’t change the buyer conduct.
So Perth actually constructed a product to resolve the tip consumer’s wants. And I imply, she received an incredible timing with the Russian invasion, however she was already doing the work of discovering the market match and getting groups to construct her into the mannequin lengthy earlier than that occurred. And so all people ought to simply go study every thing about Perth as a result of if you wish to launch an ETF, actually simply go watch all Perth’s movies.
Meb:
Perth has been on the present. She’s an alum. She, listeners, runs the Freedom ETF, FRDM, which is closing in on a billion {dollars} in property. So go Perth. That’s rad.
Liz:
Perth is wonderful. She’s simply the proper instance of it’s essential discover who’s going to purchase your nice concept earlier than going and determining methods to make your nice concept. And perhaps you had been an advisor, perhaps you labored as a wholesaler, perhaps you labored someplace within the distribution of the trade, however particularly when you’re a pure portfolio supervisor otherwise you’re outdoors of the trade, do some work on who and why and who’s shopping for this product and the place are they going to place it, since you want a few of these primary solutions earlier than you make a bunch of choices which can be going to value you cash that you just’re going to want to go change.
The way in which to launch an ETF is to have a complete bunch of cash and be keen to spend it, I feel is one of the simplest ways. Launching a car, whether or not you might be BlackRock or a startup, is a little bit of a coin toss.
I used to be speaking to my buddy who works at a fairly large asset supervisor, and he was like, “Yeah, any new fund we now have, we spend the entire time worrying about who’s going to be the primary 20 million in.” So you bought to go discover form of the place that first 20 million is, after which it’s by no means going to come back as quick as you need it to come back, and that’s why it’s essential have cash. But it surely actually is, you have a look at the listing of … any listing of ETFs and also you go to the underside ones. And it’s not identical to 30 little startup firms you’ve by no means heard of. It’s actually 90% big asset managers who’ve received autos from 2 to $10 million.
I really like telling of us, Cathie Wooden launched an ESG ETF in, I don’t know, 2000 after which closed it 18 months later ’trigger she couldn’t elevate cash in ESG ETFs. So actually you may be probably the most well-known human being on earth. You continue to want to seek out the distribution connection between the product that you just’re wrapping and the necessity, after which it’s essential not screw up the efficiency and all that form of stuff.
Meb:
In the case of, you’ve received loads of totally different takes on this area, however one of many questions we’ve been asking many of the friends is, when you sit right down to espresso or lunch with a bunch of advisors which can be type of in your world, what’s a perception you maintain that say when you sat on the desk, 75% of the attendees would shake their head and say, “Liz, I disagree with you,” on funding associated, portfolio associated, ESG, DEI associated, something come to thoughts?
Liz:
Yeah, quite a bit. I may go two instructions right here, so …
Meb:
Identify them each. Do each of them. We received time.
Liz:
So I don’t consider you may predict the market. As any person who was raised in a really evidence-based quantum psychological store the place we did no predicting of the market, it’s fascinating to see this entire ecosystem of oldsters yelling about shares all day, daily and guessing the place macro goes to go and all these items. I don’t suppose it’s 75% of oldsters don’t consider in market. And to be tremendous good it’s predicting the timing of the market too.
I feel there’s threat in timing. I feel all of the research counsel that the timing threat of energetic safety choice is likely one of the greatest issues. That’s why we’re macro agnostic. We’re every thing apart from responsibly rising agnostics regardless of the fixed barrage on Twitter or CNBC or wherever. This concept that folks simply sit on TV yelling about future numbers and what they’re going to foretell pushes cool, certified math expertise individuals away from the trade. In order that’s my common take.
My ESG take, and I hear this quite a bit, is ESG knowledge is just not standardized and might’t be standardized. And whenever you have a look at the businesses that we maintain within the portfolio, greater than half the portfolio has externally assured environmental knowledge. And so not solely is it standardized, not solely are they reporting by way of the identical framework. They’re getting exterior auditors to overview their emissions knowledge and a bunch of their environmental knowledge. And the Division of Labor is reviewing their range knowledge.
Whereas 5 years in the past for positive, it positively appeared like stuff was not standardized when it comes to ESG knowledge, all the businesses we’re taking a look at have moved in direction of this. It’s referred to as the GRI template. There’s like a billion totally different frameworks in ESG, however when you go into any massive cap sustainability report, apart from a Tesla or all the oldsters who refuse to report primary ESG stuff, which is a really small group now, the overwhelming majority, most likely like 400 of the S&P 500 firms are reporting this framework. Are they reporting year-over-year? No. You’ll be able to return to their earlier report and a few are laggards and a few are forward, however we’re in a position to take a look at three 12 months knowledge for many of those metrics for many of our firms.
Meb:
As you look again in your profession, what’s been probably the most memorable funding? Good, dangerous, in between?
Liz:
Most likely beginning the agency, however I’m going to say this ETF largely as a result of it’s public. I imply, whenever you’re working in separate accounts, we may share stuff with what we’re doing, however now it’s like, hey, we’re on the market. Efficiency has been fairly good since we began, which is a coin toss to be tremendous clear. We identical to the product. We just like the branding. We like Wes. We just like the US market. It’s nice. There’s so many alternatives. I imply, Canada’s nice too, to be tremendous clear, however we love what number of of you there are, 10 instances as many people. There’s random 4 billion RIAs in the course of states that no person’s ever heard of, which might be the twelfth largest RIA or asset wealth store in Canada.
And so I received to say, our ETF BEEZ is my favourite funding. We don’t love our firms one after the other. We consider them as a group. We’re fielding a group of gamers. I imply, we don’t play favorites. We simply wish to choose a great group. So it’s, I’ll by no means reply a single safety as being a great funding or my favourite ’trigger once more, that’s simply not how we strategy portfolio development.
Meb:
Proper on. The place do individuals discover out extra data? The place do they go? Observe you, comply with the agency, the fund, all that.
Liz:
So we now have an ETF web site, which is honeytreeinvestetfs, which is all that formal one. After which we now have honeytreeinvest.com, which is our common one which has tons of blogs. For those who simply google Honeytree Funding or Honeytree ETF, you’ll see a lot of articles and podcasts and issues like that.
I, regardless of Twitter or no matter of us wish to name it present shit present, I’m nonetheless on there. I’ll be on there till it goes down for quite a lot of totally different causes. ‘Trigger I really like the group and there’s a lot of nice of us there, and it’s how we met Wes and all these items. So Liz Simmie on Twitter, in order for you obnoxious, occasional ESG takes. I largely simply rant about how BlackRock is just not woke and other people shouldn’t be satisfied that any asset supervisor is woke. That’s us in a nutshell.
And naturally you may go by B-E-E-Z on choose custody platforms within the US. For those who’re a retail investor, it’s most likely even simpler to entry than an advisor, however in fact, we’re primarily targeted on advisors on this. So when you’re an advisor all in favour of ESG and is aware of nothing about it otherwise you’re a deep ESG practitioner, please be happy to achieve out to us on our web site ’trigger that’s who we’re trying to join with.
Meb:
Liz, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us right now.
Liz:
Thanks for having me.
Meb:
Podcast listeners we’ll publish present notes to right now’s dialog at mebfaber.com/podcast. For those who love the present, when you hate it, shoot us suggestions at [email protected]. We like to learn the evaluations. Please overview us on iTunes and subscribe the present anyplace good podcasts are discovered. Thanks for listening, associates, and good investing.
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